Reverse kit for clutch bikes

[detrols]

Hi brothers

Perhaps some might brainstormed this before, anybody came up with an idea on how to install a reverse system to a clutch bike. An option that I was thinking is installing a small electric motor with a sprocket to the chain.

Any ideas or feedback ?

My thoughts for the reverse project is to install an additional sprocket to the outwards drive, i.e. bigger diameter & couple it up with a starter. I think its viable. Any opinions ? I shouldn't damage the clutch & drive when functioning the reverse as the bike can be reversed pulled back by a 2nd pair of legs

So i'm tinkering around to see any viable options or perhaps any of you blokes have pics of your installation.

Thanks.

[Carl La Fong]

I know we discussed this on the other site. I'm not aware of anyone ever trying this sort of thing, so it is uncharted water. The lack of reverse is the only thing that I don't like about my bike. I have gotten used to finding parking places that are flat or that I can back into, using my feet. Getting the thing out of my shop is my biggest challenge, since I have to push it, backwards, on dirt. I just did it a few minutes ago and it is a real PITA
If you're thinking of a sprocket on the end of the starter motor that engages the chain when the entire motor assembly is swung down on a linkage, it may work. I think you would need as small a sprocket as possible so the ratio would not be too high. You want reverse to be a creeper gear.
I really think I may try to rig up something, like that, this winter (if we get one). Sounds like a challenging project

[hogv8]

Somehow I knew this would spark your interest John . I think it can be done also .

[Elvis]

Don't some Goldwings have an electric reverse?

[randy burkey]

Goldwings use the starter motor for reverse

[detrols]

Hello guys

You are correct, the Honda Goldwing has a reverse where a mechanical lever has to be pulled to engage the reverse & with your right hand on the bike starter button, you will press it & voulla the bike goes back.

To the Boss hoss as discussed with Carl it’s a different ball game. The Goldwing operates reverse with the same starter that cranks the engine; my idea is to install an additional starter which will sit on the top side of the angle drive. Mind you I’m not an engineer but I like to thinker in the garage.

Will have a go to this project this winter.

I have the same pita as you Carl. It’s hard to back the bike from the garage & mine is street level. What I’m thinking of doing (have to relocate the battery maybe!!) is to install an extra sprocket on the outer side off the outlet drive & place the starter on top of it. I would not require a linkage to engage as the starter act & engages to the outer sprocket by plunger, when button is pressed.

[Buck]

install a smaller tire in the rear then the bike will roll backwards with no effort, viola! reverse!!
I actually stayed in a Holiday Inn Express sometime in my first life.
Buck

[Carl La Fong]

install a smaller tire in the rear then the bike will roll backwards with no effort, viola! reverse!!
I actually stayed in a Holiday Inn Express sometime in my first life.
Buck

Why didn't I think of that?? In fact, with air shocks, you could have it both ways. Down in back for reverse, then jack it up for those high speed downhill runs. And don't forget to turn your cap backwards and lean forward. Maybe that's how a stock ZZ4 runs 8 second quarters.

Back to more practical issues. I think what Detrols is envisioning is a gear, not a sprocket, that bolts to the outside of the front drive sprocket, or pulley, in my case since I have a belt drive, The starter would be mounted, solidly, to the top of the trans on a one speed or the Curtis box on a clutch bike. Hitting a button would engage the Bendix drive to the aforementioned gear, which would have the same pitch as the starter pinion. A on-off-on toggle switch would allow the handlebar starter button to both start the engine and operate the reverse. A small starter from a riding mower or some small engine would work fine as it would have little resistance and infrequent use.
Watch my blog for possible updates as I feel this is very doable and will allow me a few more years of riding before I have to think about a t.......... tr.........tri...........I can't even say it.

[detrols]

Hey Carl, I’ve got someone on the same page as I am on now. My only concern is, would the starter of a riding mower or car engine withstands the mass that It has to move backwards. I guess We have to rig it up & find out. I guess It's my winter project this year.

[Carl La Fong]

I went out and took a good, hard look at my bike. I don't have enough space around my front pulley for any sort of gear or sprocket, so the scenario that you suggest won't work for me. My bike is, very much, out of the ordinary. On a chain drive bike, you probably have much more room than I do.
I did some online research. The starter ring gear for an 18-22 HP Kohler engine is about nine inches on the inside diameter. This may be a good starting point. A disc would have to be machined to adapt the gear to the QD bushing that secures the sprocket to the Curtis output shaft. whether the little starter that these engines use has enough grunt to back the bike up is debatable. There is a double gear reduction, the starter pinion to the ring gear and then the front sprocket to the rear, so I think it could work. The Kohler ring gear and the starter are only about 100 dollars for both pieces, here in the US, so it isn't a wallet buster.
On my bike, I think a friction drive is my only option because of all the changes I've made to the drive train. A starter with a hard, but resilient, rubber wheel on the end of the shaft, that bears down on the belt where it wraps around the front pulley. I would have to engineer an over center linkage to engage the friction drive.
You have a much simpler task at hand, I think.

[SQ4MN]

Would it be possible to wire the starter so that you could throw a toggle switch that would make the stock starter run backwards. You would leave the bike in gear and the starter would run backwards backing you up. I realize the engine would be turning over backwards at the same time but what would that hurt. Its kind of mickey mouse but it would only be used rarely and not in front of crowds.

[Carl La Fong]

I dunno. I know you can change the fields and make a DC motor run backwards, but I don't know if it can be made to switch back and forth. Big electrical things exceed my ken

[SQ4MN]

A trip to a starter motor rebuilder shop and he would most likely explain things to you. Possibly such a shop that rebuilds starters, alternators, generators, and electric motors could probably build you a little box with all the circuitry inside it and a switch on top to accomplish this. I know a guy in the valley we could see the next time I'm there if you want. Actually Mike Arbuckle could probably draw you a schematic and then you could build something sanitary. The trailer that my Kenworth pulls has a tarp over it. I throw a toggle switch in the cab and it makes the electric motor that works the tarp run clockwise or counter clock wise, the motor is a small starter motor of some sort. It works by switching the GROUND.

[Carl La Fong]

I think the starter Bendix is directional. They ride on a steep set of threads. As the motor spins, it throws the pinion gear towards the flywheel. If it were to spin the opposite way, I don't think the gear would move.
I have to call Mike and find out when the next ride is

[SQ4MN]

YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE BENDIX, I NOW DONT THINK IT WILL WORK. I THINK ITS BEST TO HONE YOUR PARKING SKILLS, I DO WHEN IM ON THE CHOPPER AND ANY TIME I USE REVERSE ON THE BOSS I WORRY ITS THE END OF MY TRANNY.

[detrols]

Thanks all for your replys & if you can get diagrams or schematics or websites from were to look at starter motors it will be appriciated, as this is uncharted water that i am through.

I might possibly fit everything in as with the chain drive I have some space allowance.

Question regarding the chain drive sprocket. When removing the 3 securing bolts, will it fall off or still secured by the 11\2 " key.

Thanks

[GordonBH]

Firstly, I have an 07 SB so don't know any clearances etc for the clutch bikes but am a frustrated inventor so sat down and thought about this and I attach a drawing I made up today. Hell knows if it would work and the practicality of space and stress forces as I'm not an engineer. And it's eaasy to make it work on paper.

But the reverse drive is such low speed I thought this might be worth looking at.

Also in Ric's honor you could make it steampunk fashion.

[Carl La Fong]

Very nice. That is close to what I had envisioned, less the intermediate gear. Not having a stock BH in front of me limits my thought process. My bike has a very large front pulley and a different rear crossmember arrangement.
No, when you remove the three bolts, nothing will fall apart. If you do wish to remove or adjust the sprocket, you take the bolts and screw them into the other three holes in the QD bushing. Snug them evenly and the assembly will pop loose

[detrols]

Gordon, That diagram is spot on & it explains the mechanics of the system, however I was considering as I might have enough clearance is to install a bigger reverse gear sprocket, diameter surpasses the drive sprocket & removing the transfer gear, as Carl mentioned too. Starter rotation would be counter clockwise to obtain the reverse motion.

As a failsafe system, I will also install a kill switch, as to not activate by incident the reverse switch on the handle bar & engage the starter while riding.

@ Carl, Thanks for the info, will give it a go when raining season starts 

[GordonBH]

Cool Detrols, my thoughts were to keep the reverse gear smaller and less intrusive but of course your suggestion would work fine too. It was a bit of fun for me to come up with a potential solution so thanks for the trigger.

Obviously I am now very intrigued by your solution to the problem and will be checking this thread out regularly (as I do all these threads LOL)

If reversal of the ground to live will reverse the starter and remove (a) moving part(s) then go for it! My sage of a mechanic always said "look for the answer that has the least moving parts - less to go wrong!" Good advice.

[GordonBH]

Rethink time:

I'll be guided by the experts but I don't think you can reverse the direction of a starter due to the overide clutch allowing the pinion gear to turn the flywheel under load and then be spun freely when the 14:1(ish) ratio flywheel ring gear is driven by the engine. Designed so it won't over-rev the starter pinion shaft.

How about an simple electric motor from a wheelchair with an extendable geared shaft onto the reverse gear?

[Carl La Fong]

Most treadmills have DC motors

[GordonBH]

Good idea, you gotta have a scrap place that'll sell one at low bucks. You guys use Craigslist a lot.

I've attached an idea to shoot down just for fun.

[detrols]

Awesome guys, actually Gordon I have found a company in UK that manufacturer reverse gear kits for track cars with motorcycle engines in them. They have a kit for an 800 Kg vehicle. Been in touch with them now & all falls down to the metric ruler if everything will fit. They also provide counter rotation motor.

[GordonBH]

Hey Detrols,

Sounds like a good solution, be interested to see it, especially how it works.