Boss Hoss Fuel Injection Issues resolved

[petitemoose]

During Bike week 2016 in Daytona I rode a Fuel Injected LS3 while Mark rode Chris' Bad Ass Vanquish around Daytona for a half an hour or so. The Bike I rode ( Jerry's ) was a great riding bike. The reason I rode it was because earlier that week Mike Kelly from Summit Boss Hoss fitted it with a new Fuel Injection setup and Mike wanted some feedback on it. Little did I know, I was riding the Prototype that would turn into the Official Fuel injection setup for Boss Hoss in 2017. Bike Fired up quick, throttle response was awesome. No Lag on, no lag off, just quick responsive dependable fuel delivery. Roll on easy, bike would just move along easy and nice ... get a little aggressive and somehow there was white smoke behind me ... Sorry Jerry, I only did it once ... Ok 4 times but not many more than that

A little while ago, Bill Banks contacted Mike Kelly about something and the conversation turned to the Fuel Injection Woes. Mike said, "Ship me a new Trike and I will fix it". Close to 100 hours later, Task accomplished!

Mike Brought in a Fast EFI setup, fuel rails, intake and all kinds of other stuff he thought may come in handy. The trike was wired with a wiring harness from a 2007 controlling everything BUT the Fast EFI system. He created a wiring harness for the Fast EFI setup and it is independent of everything else. The throttle body is mechanical, not fly by wire so Cruise Control is not possible ... For now. Fast has agreed to take part in developing this further and will work on trying to make cruise control possible. Boss Hoss was not thrilled about the loss of cruise control but the trade out (for now) seems worth it. They will also be looking at the Data logged info to see where things can be tweaked and improved as they move forward.
I do not know numbers, costs retrofit info or any of that ... But the factory will.

In the wake of the news we all got on New Years, I thought a little encouragement might be nice. Bill Banks is still part of BH and is actively trying to make it better

[V8Bikers]

That is great news! Do you know if Brian Macy is still involved?

[CanuckHoss]

I am assuming that this is just FI for the LS3...??????

[petitemoose]

That is great news! Do you know if Brian Macy is still involved?

To the best of my knowledge, Mike was working solo on this for BH.

[petitemoose]

I am assuming that this is just FI for the LS3...??????

Yep Yep Yep Have no idea what kind of insight Mike may have for the 502. If you need his number call / text me

[CanuckHoss]

I am assuming that this is just FI for the LS3...??????

Yep Yep Yep Have no idea what kind of insight Mike may have for the 502. If you need his number call / text me

I chatted with Mike before starting the FI on the 502..he had good advice..."IT WILL BE COSTLY!!" LOL...yep...he is right

[craig haymaker]

Slight state of confusion on my part, I need to be plumbed up here! I was under the impression that Uncle Ricky brought Brian Macey in to design and implement the 2017 LS3 Holley EFI ? So at what time frame did Mike get involved ? Thanks for your replies, Craig H.

[petitemoose]

Slight state of confusion on my part, I need to be plumbed up here! I was under the impression that Uncle Ricky brought Brian Macey in to design and implement the 2017 LS3 Holley EFI ? So at what time frame did Mike get involved ? Thanks for your replies, Craig H.

I would guess within the past month or two. I really have no inside info on how things happened other than what I relayed above.

[2crzy]

Why would anyone put a different fuel injection system on these bikes besides the one that comes with the engine from the factory? GM has spent millions of dollars designing these systems for millions of vehicles that are on the roads today. These LS3 create engines come with everything on the engine that you need except the ECM, which they also make that is plug and play to match any engine and trans combo. Using all GM parts and not locking the ECM, anyone can roll into any Auto shop to diagnose problems that may occur. Not to mention your cruse control and future ABS breaking will be accommodated. The cost of the Holly EFI isn't cheap and then you also need an ECM programed to run everything again. Way to complicated and costly. The idea is to keep the cost, maintenance and service of these bikes down so they are more affordable to the public. The GM system can be programed for maximum HP and also to meet any EPA law without exhaust cats etc. The 502 EFI can also be programed to meet all EPA standards as well. There is absolutely no sense in spending all this extra cost to confuse things more than they already are with these bikes and everything thing that has happed from the day BH has stared using EFI engines. Keep it simple and cost effective!

[Paul H]

Stock GM EFI won't fit the stock BH frame and tank.
So rather than redesign the frame and tank, they
have opted to change the manifold to a 4 barrel
and used an aftermarket EFI. IMHO.

Paul H

[2crzy]

What do you mean it wont fit? That's what they have been using for years on the LS engines.

On the old style frames its easier to modify the frame than it is to screw with a new EFI. Talk about being more cost effective as well.

[Jack]

I agree, I've considered notching my frame in the rear to fit an LS intake on the LS motor. I only need a couple inches, and the modification would be hidden under my gas tank.
MPFI is much better than TBI, I believe, and it comes that way. If the future of the bikes was to be EFI, the bike should have been changed to accommodate it.

[Paul H]

IF a stock GM EFI on a LS 3 will fit, then why do they go to a 4 barrel intake???

Paul H

[2crzy]

I don't know why you would want to change from a front throttle body to a top loading intake?
The system is so simple and efficient.

[SRF]

The frames were redesigned to fit the LS engines with factory intake I believe in 2008 when they used the LS2. Only reason I know they would use 4 barrel intake is for the people who think they need a carb. I do not understand why they want to go away from a GM style ecm either or why they can't make it work the way they want to. I think going back to the earlier GM throttle bodies with a cable instead of drive by wire would take care of many of the problems that have been had. My guess is that the people involved are using the products that they are most familiar with and works for them.

Shane

[2crzy]

Every time you change something from GM factory it always cost more money and you have other issues with it. The drive by wire works excellent with the right ECM. Like the ones that come right from GM without somebody fucking with them. Here is one that I Built for my bike it's 102 mm throttlebody with the LS7 Drive by wire matched up with a Corvette ECM. Works awesome never had one issue with this thing.

[SRF]

The issue I have with drive by wire is that the pedal position sensor is now open to the elements of weather and washing instead of inside a vehicle as it was designed to be. GM has built ls engines with cable and drive by wire both. Yes it would cost money to go back to cable but if I had an LS bike with repeat problems that is the direction I would go. I do not have an LS bike so it doesn't really matter.

Shane

[Oldun]

What do you mean it wont fit? That's what they have been using for years on the LS engines.

On the old style frames its easier to modify the frame than it is to screw with a new EFI. Talk about being more cost effective as well.

As far as I know, being a mechanical rank amateur, there's not been a factory-origin / retro-fit successful EFI installation for the *older* (shall we call them first-gen?) 502s other than the ones a really smart guy like those listed in this thread has built on a one-off basis. I researched this as best I could 'cause I wanted EFI on my replacement older 502.

The renewed 502 product line recently announced must be a different kettle o' fish than the older ones, not so?

[2crzy]

The EFI unit off the newer 502's will fit on what you have the older style. You can put fuel injection on any motor you want. There should not be a problem to do this at all. The engines are all the same. Just need an ECM and a fuel injection system. New fuel pump and some plumbing.

[Oldun]

The EFI unit off the newer 502's will fit on what you have the older style. You can put fuel injection on any motor you want. There should not be a problem to do this at all. The engines are all the same. Just need an ECM and a fuel injection system. New fuel pump and some plumbing.

Thanks for the background. I had more than a couple of shops (i.e. 3) look at retrofitting EFI to the older 502s, in both California and New Zealand (separate bikes). Spent a few dollars (yeah, well, more than a few dollars) having units fitted. The consensus / result was the combination of the engine and short-502-exhausts did not permit an accurately self-adjusting EFI "off-the-shelf".

I'm currently having my US replacement 502 done by Brian M at Lake Havasu and I am 100% confident that this time it'll work. Because besides being a horsepower guru, (a) he's made it work on other bikes and (b) it'll be highly customised for the exact bike.

Because again, as far as I can tell again from research, everybody who's had a good retrofit EFI result, has had a custom set up.

But like I say, I just ride them, I don't fix them or tune them

[CanuckHoss]

The EFI unit off the newer 502's will fit on what you have the older style. You can put fuel injection on any motor you want. There should not be a problem to do this at all. The engines are all the same. Just need an ECM and a fuel injection system. New fuel pump and some plumbing.

Thanks for the background. I had more than a couple of shops (i.e. 3) look at retrofitting EFI to the older 502s, in both California and New Zealand (separate bikes). Spent a few dollars (yeah, well, more than a few dollars) having units fitted. The consensus / result was the combination of the engine and short-502-exhausts did not permit an accurately self-adjusting EFI "off-the-shelf".

I'm currently having my US replacement 502 done by Brian M at Lake Havasu and I am 100% confident that this time it'll work. Because besides being a horsepower guru, (a) he's made it work on other bikes and (b) it'll be highly customised for the exact bike.

Because again, as far as I can tell again from research, everybody who's had a good retrofit EFI result, has had a custom set up.

But like I say, I just ride them, I don't fix them or tune them

Brian getting close on your bike?

My trike has long exhaust so I won't have the issues a bike with short exhaust would have..at least we hope...fingers crossed.

Heads, new intake and the Sniper Fi were fitted yesterday and today...progress is being made..

[Jack]

I posted the video in another thread of my o2 sensor placement for my EFI install. I have a block hugger header into a 90* bend and then about 3' of pipe. My sensor is about 8" after the bend.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - I'm no mechanic and I had my system installed and running in about 4 hours... that includes mounting and adjusting throttlebody, mounting and wiring fuel system, tach signal, coolant sensor, o2 sensor (muffler shop cut/welded for $20), harness install (power, grnd, key power), and temporarily mounting the "dashboard" to monitor vitals.

I spent weeks trying to find a throttle body that fit under my frame and between my gas tanks. The MSD worked out "snuggly" but perfectly.

If you have a good carb, and no NEED for EFI - it is a costly luxury... it won't solve other problems you may have, it may actually complicate any problems that you're currently experiencing. Carbs can be finicky... but a carb has never needed firmware, software, and hardware.

[petitemoose]

If you have a good carb, and no NEED for EFI - it is a costly luxury... it won't solve other problems you may have, it may actually complicate any problems that you're currently experiencing. Carbs can be finicky... but a carb has never needed firmware, software, and hardware.

Jack, I feel the same way. I am totally happy that I have an older Carbed bike. On the other hand, There are a LOT of benefits to having a computer controlled engine once they are fine tuned. It seems that they can create tons of horsepower by just "Properly Tuning" what you already have. I guess it boils down to just how efficient you want to be.
I do not pretend to understand how guys like Brian and Mike can "find" 50 horsepower by clicking here and pasting there on their laptops. I am glad they have the ability and fortunately All I have to do is give them my bike and say ... "Guys ... Click and paste, I wanna haul ass". Then write a big fat check when they are done.
I am happy with my bike. I know I am not getting the best possible fuel mileage and the MOST bang for my buck but Holy Crap that scoot sounds good with its choppy idle and carbon covered exhaust pipe. It starts up every time and rides out fine. No worry about fly by this or O2 that. I just twist the throttle and go. I will probably get passed by one of those computer controlled modern bad asses but to me its no big deal. I am still a Moose riding a V8 bike so I am a double anomaly all by myself

[Paul H]

Right on, MOOSE.

Paul H

[Jack]

Most of the TBI EFI out there doesn't like a choppy cam... lol.

And actually, the HP and MPG from converting isn't as drastic as some may think. A well tuned carbed motor is actually REALLY competitive with the TBI EFI out there.

I'm no tuner, but there is only so much you can do with an NA motor to make power. It's all about air in and out, fuel in, and timing. You can get pretty aggressive with a few variables but EFI let's you do most of it with a keyboard, instead of changing jets or power valves, and turning your distributor a little.
You can run a wideband o2 sensor on a carbd bike and see your AFR just like EFI. Nothing stopping you from doing that.